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Post by Bluesman on Dec 11, 2012 19:27:23 GMT
So, the Welsh language is dying.
In spite of all the hundreds of millions (many say BILLIONS) of pounds wasted (since devolution) trying to force the ridiculous Welsh language down our throats, it is now certain that there is no hope for Welsh.
The arrogant Welsh media and Welsh political "crachach snobs" have just received the killer punch.
For in spite of disgustingly high amounts of much needed money being spent and wasted.... In spite of the one-sided Welsh media puffing up the Welsh language whenever possible.... And in spite of many children having to learn Welsh by the use of the disgusting "immersion technique" method of language education, its all been a complete waste of time, money and effort.
So if you have sent your child/children to a Welsh medium school, and now realize you have made a serious mistake, get them out of there as quickly as possible.
No doubt your children have told you about them having to speak Welsh, AND ONLY WELSH, when on school premises. And even more sickeningly, actually being punished for daring to speak ANY English in school time, in the playground, or indeed on any school premises.
This pointless Welsh language is quite simply the most underhand, calculating,and divisive stunt imaginable. A classic example being the appalling spreading of rumours that unless your child can speak Welsh, they will find it much more difficult to find employment. Its no wonder then that some of the more gullible and easily led parents, have sent their children to the nightmare that is Welsh Medium Education.
Quicker it disappears, the better !
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Post by paperboy on Dec 11, 2012 22:14:00 GMT
Brilliant, what a fantastic reply, supported 100% by someone born, brought up, and still living in Wales, who doesn't speak Welsh, but would lay down my life for my country.
There is no need for Welsh as an everyday language, Wales won't die because everyone doesn't speak Welsh. If the money and time spent on Welsh language promotion, was put into attracting business and industry to Wales we would be a damn site better off.
Why? as it was stated on the news tonight, are Welsh youngsters leaving to go to England in search of jobs, but more English people are coming here.
I am all for kids being taught French,Spanish, German even Chinese as these are world wide, and can be of great use to young people searching for jobs abroad. But Welsh is mainly in Wales, so what's the point.
Assembly wake up, before you ruin our country, we want our young people to have a future here, and they wont if there are no jobs, or the only ones have a proviso that you have to speak Welsh!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by airwolf21 on Dec 11, 2012 23:31:10 GMT
I echo everything above. Shall we resurect latin as well?
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Post by rhonddaboy on Dec 12, 2012 16:27:41 GMT
Nonsensical contributions, as usual and expected, on this topic from the culturally bereft.
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Post by valleyboy on Dec 12, 2012 20:12:38 GMT
Yep.
Ancient Greek and Latin in University - Education.
Works of Shakespeare and other English Literature in schools - Education.
Kids leaning Welsh in schools - Subsidy.
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Post by Bluesman on Dec 13, 2012 20:10:17 GMT
Nonsensical contributions, as usual and expected, on this topic from the culturally bereft. So Rhonddaboy, anyone with the temerity to disagree with your cock-eyed, Welsh nationalist propaganda, must of course be culturally bereft.  So, in order to enlighten the culturally bereft masses, perhaps you 'boys' (both of you) could educate us peasants by pointing out some specific examples of Welsh culture. I'm sure we all await your reply with bated breath.... |
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Post by Bluesman on Dec 13, 2012 20:23:19 GMT
Yep. Kids *****leaning ***** Welsh in schools Now would that be the "LEANING" tower of Welshness"..  Oh dear Valleyboy...Looks like you've fallen on your "r r r s" yet again !  ! |
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Post by rhonddaboy on Dec 13, 2012 20:53:33 GMT
Nonsensical contributions, as usual and expected, on this topic from the culturally bereft. So Rhonddaboy, anyone with the temerity to disagree with your cock-eyed, Welsh nationalist propaganda, must of course be culturally bereft. So, in order to enlighten the culturally bereft masses, perhaps you 'boys' (both of you) could educate us peasants by pointing out some specific examples of Welsh culture. I'm sure we all await your reply with bated breath.... A good Christmas read for you and like-minded others is A History of Wales by John Davies. An excellent volume. It is written in the English language but is also available in the language of heaven [Welsh]. Mwynhewch! |
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Post by pontyslapper on Dec 13, 2012 22:24:32 GMT
Bless you!! Sounds like you need a trip to Jones the Chemist with a nasty sounding cough like that. Welsh is dead - admit it. Its got to the point now of being artificially propped up in English medium schools upto and including secondary level. Kids in comps are FORCED to sit GCSE Welsh to the detriment of other subjects such as Maths/English/Science - the subjects that are measured in the PISA ratings - the very ratings that Wales did so fantastically well in!! Teachers are forced to use 'incidental' Welsh in their lessons - absolute bollocks!! Many I know have simply ignored that idiotic diktat from Leighton Andrews - their time is surely better spent educating the pupils with something useful - rather than filling their heads with the Welsh for 'Please can I go to the toilet'! Just a thought. |
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Post by valleyboy on Dec 14, 2012 0:44:07 GMT
Welsh is dead - admit it. Having spoken in Welsh with my nephew earlier this evening, I can assure you. We are not dead. Its got to the point now of being artificially propped up in English medium schools upto and including secondary level. Education is not a 'prop-up' activity. No 'subject' is propped up. Kids in comps are FORCED to sit GCSE Welsh to the detriment of other subjects such as Maths/English/Science - the subjects that are measured in the PISA ratings - the very ratings that Wales did so fantastically well in!! I cannot understand how speaking Welsh makes you worse at maths. If you are talking about subject options, the same could be said about any other subjects. The pass rates in Welsh medium schools (with one or two exceptions) are always better than the equivalent English medium schools. This is the reason why there is a debate between whether this is because parents who send their kids to the Welsh school take a greater interest in their kids education, or whether the very existence of a multi-lingual environment actually increases cognitive development. Teachers are forced to use 'incidental' Welsh in their lessons - absolute bollocks!! Many I know have simply ignored that idiotic diktat from Leighton Andrews - their time is surely better spent educating the pupils with something useful - rather than filling their heads with the Welsh for 'Please can I go to the toilet'! Asking the teacher for permission to go to the toilet is an infant and possibly primary school activity, most secondary school pupils have developed a form of bladder control not requiring this request. There has been some press speculation that children in Ceredigion are forced to ask in Welsh or denied a toilet break. This is a fabrication by an English freelance reporter in Machynlleth looking for a story after not finding missing April, and an anonymous website peddling rubbish. In Ceredigion you are not allowed to go to the toilet until you say 'plis' at the end of the request, same as you would in the English language. It's called coaching infants in language skill. As for Leighton Andrews AM, Labour, he shares, generally, the same view as all the political parties elected to the Senedd. I cannot understand why this debate about the Welsh language has anything to do with education. The number of people who have passed through the Welsh education system and speak Welsh since the last census has actually INCREASED. The decline in the numbers of people who can speak the language is as a result of migration (significant) and a generation of people who cannot speak Welsh and have never been given the opportunity of accessing Welsh language education, living longer. You will notice almost no change in the percentage of Welsh speakers in RCT. This is because those who have died have been replaced with another generation of Welsh speakers. The decline is almost all in the traditional Welsh speaking areas of Wales. Natives moving away to find work and retirees, mainly from England, moving in to the rural idyll. Check out the stats. |
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Post by Bluesman on Dec 14, 2012 10:20:30 GMT
The decline in the numbers of people who can speak the language is as a result of migration (significant) and a generation of people who cannot speak Welsh and have never been given the opportunity of accessing Welsh language education, living longer. You really are barking mad VB  You are actually saying that the reason there is such a decline in the numbers of Welsh speakers is because...wait for it....PEOPLE ARE LIVING LONGER ! Another of your artificially manufactured reasons for the decline in Welsh speakers is because of.... Quote..."a generation of people who cannot speak Welsh, and have never been given the opportunity of accessing Welsh language education" What a load of old b*llocks ! I was born in Wales in 1949 (now 63) started school in 1953 and from then, (4 years old) until 1961(12 years old) received compulsory Welsh education. Indeed it was only in my second year in grammar school (Canton High, Cardiff) that I was at last given the opportunity NOT to have the useless Welsh language rammed down my throat, and at last given the chance to select another language for 'O' and 'A' levels I chose French..... So your latest statement, about Quote "never having the opportunity of accessing Welsh language education" can be added to the ever growing pile of politically motivated,Plaid Cymru driven, Welsh language bullsh*t you have churned out over the years....  |
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Post by valleyboy on Dec 14, 2012 11:49:15 GMT
You are actually saying that the reason there is such a decline in the numbers of Welsh speakers is because...wait for it....PEOPLE ARE LIVING LONGER ! No. If you are to read (in English) what I said..... you will see that I state that the proportion of people who speak Welsh in RCT is constant. There is an older generation of people who do not speak Welsh and they are living longer. The proportion of people who speak Welsh in younger generations, is actually increasing and much higher in RCT. This is because Welsh language education in schools in RCT appears to be having an effect. It's also the case that in RCT Welsh language schools are over subscribed and English medium schools under subscribed. I was born in Wales in 1949 (now 63) started school in 1953 and from then, (4 years old) until 1961(12 years old) received compulsory Welsh education. Indeed it was only in my second year in grammar school (Canton High, Cardiff) that I was at last given the opportunity NOT to have the useless Welsh language rammed down my throat, and at last given the chance to select another language for 'O' and 'A' levels You evidently were 'forced' to have Welsh lessons in primary school which would have been in a school prior to the establishment of seperate dedicated Welsh medium schools (immersion). I therefore understand why you have formed a hostile opinion of the Welsh language. This I suspect is the reason. You would have been an unwilling pupil, and the enviroment where Welsh language classes provided would have been an achademic exiersize rather than a 'spoken and interactive' environment. I had the same experience, and I too developed a hostility to the Welsh language at that time. The important word in that statement is 'chose'. Which language is irrelevant. At secondary level you made a choice of other options too, for example, between sciences and arts, between languages and history, all kinds of options, which at that time was different by type of school (secondary modern schools v grammar), and the options available were different by education authority depending on their particular policy at the time. Continuation into secondary school by a child who has already come through a primary (immersion) welsh medium schools does not present as many challenges. They are already fluent and use the Welsh language daily in school. This provides both the child and the parents choice. So your latest statement, about "never having the opportunity of accessing Welsh language education" can be added to the ever growing pile of politically motivated, Plaid Cymru driven, Welsh language bullsh*t you have churned out over the years. Welsh language education in Wales is no longer the dreaded, yet compulsory, 'extra class' on Wednesday afternoon, which was universally hated in majority English speaking parts of Wales. Even in English medium schools the way it is taught has changed considerably. It is now a whole process, from 4 to 18 years old, dedicated Welsh medium provision provided. As for your comments about Plaid, may I point out that actually, political party policy of all four of the main political parties in Wales is very similar. It should also be noted that when Plaid left office in RCT council in 2004, and Labour was elected to rule the education authority, the provision of Welsh language education in RCT has continued to accelerate. I'm not sure if this is 'policy' or 'parental demand'. An interesting statistic from the latest census is that it is Tory controlled Monmouthshire which is experiencing a significant INCREASE in the numbers of young people graduating with a command of the language. Regarding your "French skills" and the "subsidy issue". Do you still get your winter fuel allowance, and how are you getting on with your second property in France? It must be very useful to have a good command of the local language. It's interesting you still have the 'rammed down my throat' problem. You are now 63 years old, no-one is ramming anything down your throat. You had a bad experience half a century ago. Get over it. You understand the road signs, and if you don't want to watch S4C use the remote and change channel, if you don't like the Welsh on government forms, turn the page over and use the English side, but please do not deprive the younger generation of the CHOICE of a Welsh medium education. I see you have avoided the issue of 'migration' of Englsh people into i mewn i'r Fro Gymraeg. |
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El Jay
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Not where I'd like to be.
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Post by El Jay on Dec 14, 2012 13:29:46 GMT
I see you have avoided the issue of 'migration' of Englsh people into Fro Cymraeg. Your Welsh is almost as poor as your pathetic attempt at Romaji Japanese in another thread - it's Y Fro Gymraeg, not "Fro Cymraeg" |
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Post by valleyboy on Dec 14, 2012 15:13:07 GMT
Your Welsh is almost as poor as your pathetic attempt at Romaji Japanese in another thread - it's Y Fro Gymraeg, not "Fro Cymraeg" I have corrected both of us.  |
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Post by Bluesman on Dec 14, 2012 19:36:02 GMT
Valleyboy.
After reading what allegedly passed as your reply to my post, such is the appalling amount of twisted dishonesty, and offensive personal suggestions you have manufactured, I feel it best not to get involved with your clearly disturbed opinions. You seem utterly incapable of putting forward an honest response to what I actually wrote.
Although not normally interested in the 'Karma' exalt/smite opinion gauge, I couldn't help but notice just how unpopular your opinions seem to be on here.
The fact that 2,776 opinions have been registered against your posts, only goes to show that I am not alone in finding your extremely warped offerings to be somewhat worrying.
Any normal person would be more than a little perturbed by such unpopularity. But like all 'one trick ponies', you carry on blinkered and regardless. So devoid of any give and take, variation, or even a glimmer of humour are you, that most on here decide not to even bother replying to your posts....Though maybe that is what you really want ?
Incidentally, I refused to comment on your rather sneering last sentence, as your many previous anti-English diatribes have only confirmed my opinions of them to be borderline racist.
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El Jay
Full Member
Not where I'd like to be.
Posts: 502
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Post by El Jay on Dec 14, 2012 23:11:52 GMT
Your Welsh is almost as poor as your pathetic attempt at Romaji Japanese in another thread - it's Y Fro Gymraeg, not "Fro Cymraeg" I have corrected both of us. I had a feeling that there were two of you because nobody could possibly be so obtuse with only one head. Although not normally interested in the 'Karma' exalt/smite opinion gauge, I couldn't help but notice just how unpopular your opinions seem to be on here. The fact that 2,776 opinions have been registered against your posts, only goes to show that I am not alone in finding your extremely warped offerings to be somewhat worrying. Any normal person would be more than a little perturbed by such unpopularity. But like all 'one trick ponies', you carry on blinkered and regardless. So devoid of any give and take, variation, or even a glimmer of humour are you, that most on here decide not to even bother replying to your posts....Though maybe that is what you really want ? Yep, he either has skin like a rhino' or he's thicker than the stale bullshit he posts here - maybe both as there appears to be two of him, one who was working underground at Coedely Colliery in 1980 while the other was a student in North Wales at the same time.  |
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Post by valleyboy on Dec 15, 2012 0:18:03 GMT
Note for ElJay - I left Gwynedd Technical College in June 1980 with a Technician Engineering Diploma (OND), I started at Cwm/CoedEly in August 1980. Although I find your detailed interest in my personal life 32 years ago, and your notebook style recollection of previous personal details, a tad disturbing.
Thankyou both for the insults.
You obviously don't like my opinion.
The only comment I can make on them is being pro-Welsh medium education is not anti-English. Indeed I suspect I have previously spent longer living and working in England than both of you. I have never met any English people who see supporting the Welsh language as being anti-English, only a small number of Welsh people who have a hang-up about not being able to speak the language.
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Post by pontyslapper on Dec 15, 2012 9:33:44 GMT
You will notice almost no change in the percentage of Welsh speakers in RCT. This is because those who have died have been replaced with another generation of Welsh speakers. The decline is almost all in the traditional Welsh speaking areas of Wales. Natives moving away to find work and retirees, mainly from England, moving in to the rural idyll. Check out the stats. You sir are in no uncertain terms - a billy bullshitter and a f***ing great BIG LIAR!! The ONS figures for RCT are on their website in the form of datacubes for anyone to pick up and interrogate in Excel spreadsheets. The format differs slightly from 2001 to 2011 but the figures do not lie unlike you.... I've pulled the data and had a quick look at Non welsh speakers in RCT. 2001 - 78.92% of people over 3 claim NO Welsh language skills 2011 - 87.68% of people over 3 cliam NO Welsh language skills Thats AN INCREASE of 8.76% in bare %age terms of people IN RCT claiming NO Welsh Language skills - NOT as you claim no change!! In terms of numbers it looks like this 2001 - 176,711 out of 223,924 - No Welsh language skills 2011 - 197,776 out of 225,555 - No Welsh language skills As you can see the population has barely changed - an extra 1631 people - so no real discernable difference. Its all on the ONS website just search for the census data - and plough through it! |
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Post by pontyslapper on Dec 15, 2012 9:58:57 GMT
The decline in Welsh skills is even more evident when you drill down into the figures...
No Welsh skills has one option, Welsh language skills has six options - clearly to try and 'boost' the numbers of Welsh speakers.... here they are, direct from the ONS datasets
Welsh Language Skills are then divided into the following categories:
a. No skills in Welsh
b. Speaks and reads but does not write Welsh
c. Speaks but does not read or write Welsh
d. Speaks, reads and writes Welsh
e. Understands spoken Welsh only
f. Other combination of skills in Welsh
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Post by valleyboy on Dec 15, 2012 10:21:30 GMT
Pontyslapper... The data shows that the proportion of people who speak Welsh in RCT is 12.3% in 2011 it was 12.5% in 2001. This is a decline of 0.2%, a negligible change.The data is here... www.opendrive.com/files/64235267_xIYHF_9f6a/Census2001and2011-SpeaksWelsh-Age-County-Plus.xlsYou appear to have jumped on the 'no Welsh language skills' statistic which does not indicate that the rest of the population speak Welsh. You have identified people who describe themselves as 'no Welsh language skills' which is not a measure of people who can speak Welsh, more a measure of the large, probably, possibly majority of people in RCT who are 'in between' and do not speak Welsh socially but have a smattering of ability. People of my generation who, if they don't 'immerse', only have a basic ability from school. many years ago, and do not use the language on a daily basis. These people are difficult to measure on a census form unless you have a conversation with them. Ability varies from Bore Da to a significant multi-lingual chopping between languages in the pub/on the street. These are not 'Welsh speakers'. If you read what I have posted on this forum, - please do -, what I have identified is that in RCT there is a significant increase in the number of older people and a higher proportion of those do not speak Welsh (those living longer). But, as you can see, there is a higher proportion of people of the younger generation of who are Welsh speakers. This is evidently a reflection of the higher proportion of people in RCT who are going through Welsh Medium education. The reason why I have identified age, is..... Older people (60-70yo) eventually die, although mortality is getting older. Younger people (20-30yo) tend to be the ones having children. who go through the education system. This is not being a 'f**king liar' as you describe me. It's correctly identifying what is going on. |
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Post by rhonddaboy on Dec 15, 2012 14:25:08 GMT
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Post by rhonddaboy on Dec 15, 2012 17:44:06 GMT
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Post by airwolf21 on Dec 16, 2012 18:13:29 GMT
Yes, they want spending quadrupled on promoting welsh?!!!!! Exactly what we need to focus spending on in these times! |
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El Jay
Full Member
Not where I'd like to be.
Posts: 502
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Post by El Jay on Dec 18, 2012 21:24:32 GMT
Note for ElJay - I left Gwynedd Technical College in June 1980 with a Technician Engineering Diploma (OND), I started at Cwm/CoedEly in August 1980. Although I find your detailed interest in my personal life 32 years ago, and your notebook style recollection of previous personal details, a tad disturbing. Thankyou both for the insults. You obviously don't like my opinion. My "notebook style recollection" of you stems from the biggest mistake you've ever made on these boards when you called me "a sad twat" and some kind of sexual deviant when I exposed you for the blatant liar that you are, Dave let you get away with it so don't come the old "thank you for your insults" crap with me bloke and if you've found my subsequent posts disturbing, they have served their purpose. The only comment I can make on them is being pro-Welsh medium education is not anti-English. Indeed I suspect I have previously spent longer living and working in England than both of you. I have never met any English people who see supporting the Welsh language as being anti-English, only a small number of Welsh people who have a hang-up about not being able to speak the language. WTF has living and working in England got to do with not being anti-English, you've made it patently obvious in your posts to anybody with half an eye that you are...didn't you state with some kind of perverted pride that the Government of the day once called you 'the enemy within' not so long ago? |
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Post by valleyboy on Dec 19, 2012 7:05:32 GMT
..didn't you state with some kind of perverted pride that the Government of the day once called you 'the enemy within' not so long ago? When the Westminster government labelled me "the enemy within" it was chartering ships from the Soviet Union to import Polish coal into Newport and Port Talbot, arresting me for being with a group of colleagues if our number exceeded six, imposed a curfew not the leave the valley between the hours of 9am and 5pm, and refused to allow me to the access the cash I had already paid to the trustees of a pension scheme to pay for enrolment at University. Then again, at that time I, like most of the rest of Wales, was always voting Labour and getting Tory. It was about that time I decided one of my goals was to remove the Westminster government ability to rule over Wales. This has only been partially successful. Yes, I am proud of being called "the enemy within". |
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ace
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Post by ace on Dec 19, 2012 10:42:03 GMT
Quite so valleyboy. Judge a man by his enemies.
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Post by jesuswilliams on Dec 19, 2012 11:25:07 GMT
Why don't we just all learn Arabic and the Koran and have done with it. The sooner this country starts treating its original citizens the same, i.e. the Welsh, Scottish, and Irish the better.
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Post by Dave on Dec 19, 2012 12:17:15 GMT
As I understand it Welsh speakers have remained about the same in SE Wales (although some Welsh speakers will have left for better jobs elsewhere). The big drop is in the West where this has also happened, plus retired English speaking 'foreigners' have moved in. The population of Wales doesn't help either. 3 million? If 1% of the rich SE England moved to Wales we'd have what? 200,000 immigrants?
I do think national government and local should do all it can to get jobs here, then we'd cut the benefit bill, reduce the brain drain to England, cut our social services spending, cut the NHS bill and locals could afford to buy houses not just rich retirees.
I wonder how many low income valley folk sell up the 2 bed terrace in Treharris and retire to a huge farm in the rolling meadows of Hertfordshire each year?
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El Jay
Full Member
Not where I'd like to be.
Posts: 502
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Post by El Jay on Dec 19, 2012 13:46:58 GMT
When the Westminster government labelled me "the enemy within" it was chartering ships from the Soviet Union to import Polish coal into Newport and Port Talbot, arresting me for being with a group of colleagues if our number exceeded six, imposed a curfew not the leave the valley between the hours of 9am and 5pm, and refused to allow me to the access the cash I had already paid to the trustees of a pension scheme to pay for enrolment at University. Then again, at that time I, like most of the rest of Wales, was always voting Labour and getting Tory. It was about that time I decided one of my goals was to remove the Westminster government ability to rule over Wales. This has only been partially successful. Yes, I am proud of being called "the enemy within". More lies. You'd already graduated, left the UK and worked around Europe for a number of years when "The Prime Minister of the UK at the time called me the 'enemy within'." or was it the other you who submitted the post below? When I was young and graduated I left the UK all together. I worked my way around the rest of Europe for a number of years. I'm not British. The Prime Minister of the UK at the time called me the 'enemy within'.
I'm now back. It has moulded my politics. Until Wales leaves the UK and gains independence we will not have the will or the tools to put right the economic situation in the Rhondda.
Independence!
Some do call it aspiration. |
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Post by valleyboy on Dec 19, 2012 14:24:31 GMT
I started by degree in 1985, (did 1 year out in 1987) graduated in 1989, and worked my first stint away in 1989. Are you stalking me?
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